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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Jan 25, 2010 10:00am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

I think all of these Red Rocks shows are highly overated!

Its classic 80's Dead Head exuberance; you were there, the scene was fun, so of course the music had to be great...

In this case the venue has aquired a mythical mystique to it, but an ampitheatre carved out of a beautiful Rocky Mountain box canyon doesnt = great jamming!

Just because you were tripping your brains out during a purple sunset or while lightning was flashing in the distance doesnt make the music excellent!

Look at the reviews for these shows, all five stars, for every review, even for the shows there during the mid-eighties. And some of these are real stinkers too!

The truth is that most of these Red Rock performances are 3 star shows. None of them can hold a candle to even an average performance from 1972, and with the exception of one or two, they are not even among the best from the 80's.

I shlepped out there for three shows in '84, and while I enjoyed the scene, the music certainly wasnt memorable...

Just my opinion, but what the fuck do I know?

This post was modified by Cliff Hucker on 2010-01-25 18:00:29

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Jan 25, 2010 1:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

Hey Cliff> I agree with you that these shwos are over rated. In fact I think the venue is over rated. Unless you're in the first 20 rows you just get farther and farter back so what you gain in scenery you lose big time in intimacy. I find the Greek to be a way superior venue.

Now, while I DO agree with you I gotta ask - Jesus man, do you EVER have a good f-ing time at a show ever?

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 25, 2010 1:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

Now Johnny, I real gotta agree with you about this one:

"...farter back..."

The idea that I would have been farter back behind SDH at one of these Red Rock shows REALLY brings into focus how lucky I was to stop when I did...

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jan 25, 2010 1:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

and your shoes remained vomit free.

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Poster: cosmic charlie dupree Date: Jan 25, 2010 2:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

Thanks for giving me my first chuckle-chortle of the day.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Jan 25, 2010 5:25pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

"...do you EVER have a good f-ing time at a show ever?"

At the time, I enjoyed most of the Grateful Dead shows that I attended!

It's just that now, with very few exceptions, I cant bring myself to listen to any of them...

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Poster: gphishmon Date: Jan 26, 2010 6:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

I gotta agree, Cliff. They did get better in 1989-91, though, in my opinion, and some of those shows (particularly 10/26/89, 3/29/90, 7/2/90, and 9/20/90 - i.e., the ones with a full-fledged Dark Star) hold their own against most shows even from 68-74. But very little from 78-88 probably deserves even 4 stars (a few worth noting are 5/12/80, 3/5/81, 5/16/81, 9/26/81, 12/31/81, 4/6/82, 4/17/83, 10/15/83, and 7/13/84). On the other hand, if you want to hear Shakedown, Feel Like a Stranger, Victim, Foolish, etc., you gotta go to 78 and later (Terrapin Station was the last Great-ful album IMHO), and I think some songs got better in the 80's (Shakedown, Estimated, Stranger, Terrapin, Uncle John's, Birdsong, and Let It Grow). Also, while Space could often be a bore-fest, there were some exceptional ones (4/6/82 and 4/17/83 are my favorites).

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Jan 25, 2010 6:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

While I enjoy Wise's audience recordings of the '82 run just because I like good audience recordings, I would have to admit that if I was going to pick 50 shows for the proverbial desert island, 7/8/78 would be the only Red Rocks show even in the running.

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Poster: utopian Date: Jan 25, 2010 7:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

Ah yes,
back to thread topic- redrocks
78 is tops on my list too

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jan 25, 2010 10:03am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

I was there in '84 as well, had a blast, but can't immediately recall any tune that was distinctive other than a sloppy, albeit first, Mr. Fantasy and the second US Blues (wave it high). That said, I loved seeing shows at Red Rocks and the Greek for outdoor venues. I may have seen a better show in '83 at Hartford, but Hartford sucks as a place to spend time (hey TITO!). And no, I don't want my money back from any of those shows.

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Poster: clashcity Date: Jan 25, 2010 10:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

Not a fair comparison at all - 80's to '72.

I do think its kind of nutty that one would more often choose the 80's over anything from the wheel house that is 68-74.

But I am not so delusional to judge everything that came after unlistenable...

Everyone is entitled to their opinion I suppose.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Jan 25, 2010 10:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

"Everyone is entitled to their opinion..."

Them's fightin' words. We all know that all opinions must first be cleared through proper channels and then your mind will be made up for you, regardless.

Different strokes for different folks.

Easy on the strokes Dire, it's only Monday.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jan 25, 2010 11:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

we all know mine are strokes of genius (and they only get better as the week moves along)

:)

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Poster: groovernut Date: Jan 25, 2010 10:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

Not sure folks are claiming it's unlistanable , just that the reviews are misleading... and that the show's in the 80's don't stack up to the quality I hear in the 60's and 70's. Back in the 80's and 90's when I was actively going to shows I did not know the music as well as I do toady. If I had not gone to the shows in the 80's and 90's chances are I would have NEVER listen to as many 60's and 70's shows.... so go figure... but I now love the early stuff (that I did not understand back then!)
Before you rate that show that you went to, try to listen to some of the gems on this site... then after you have explored the 3 decades you can post a realistic review. You can post stories and experiences with out rating you know.... they do add flavor.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 25, 2010 11:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

Nicely put, groover.

I am struck by how well folks recall so many of their shows (unlike me, assume some took notes on set lists? Or, listened to them enough here or elsewhere to get the songs "down").

I only recall a few of the songs from my top shows (like those of 75 I often mention), but I haven't listened to them for yrs and yrs (well, I have sampled 6-17 & 9-28 from 75, but not the entire shows). I did ALWAYS recall the great CFing & Peg-O from the first, and the Truc/NFA/OMSN from the latter, but that was about it...

I am sorry to say (sad, eh Grendel?) I can't recall the Oct 78 shows or Jul Orph 76 shows at all, except for the unrecognizable StSt at the latter, and the INAM (very energetic! Crowd pleaser!) at the former...

Again, this wasn't because I wasn't happy with them, I just didn't do any real "analysis" (seems so contrary to what I spend ALL my time doing now!) as to whether they were good, bad, or great...I always left feeling they'd been what I expected even if I'd taken someone that hadn't gotten it, and whenever I happened upon tapes later, they only confirmed that feeling, BUT I put no real thought into it...

It was only when I arrived here and really listened to pre 72 that I really thought "Whoa! I never heard this kind of energy! This kind of joy and excitment while playing!" and it sorta confirmed a nagging feeling I'd had all along.

So, I think my point is that I always suspected I wasn't seeing "GREAT!!!" shows, but I had no basis for that position at the time (so little early era stuff was available; my circle of HEADs just didn't have the tapes we hear about from old farts here like GoP and such) and I never would have been able to say "Aug, 79 with Brent just SUCKED in comparison to last Oct, 78, with Keith"...I would have characterized them as largely similar with only subtle reasons behind why I did think Jun and Sep 75 were somehow better by a bit than the others I saw.

There, and you thought science and God could bring out the nonsensical in me...

WTF, Dire!? Have you been off recovering with Brady or some such? Long time my friend, long time...

This post was modified by William Tell on 2010-01-25 19:55:42

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Jan 25, 2010 12:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

My gripe is with all the five-star reviews. How the hell can shows from the mid 90's possibly warrant five stars?

Personally, I think a three-star show is still a good performance, with four stars being very good, and five exceptional. This is partly the reason I use a 100 point scale to rate shows, with a three-star show scoring in the low nineties.

If shows like 2/28/69, 4/28/71, 9/21/72, and 5/8/77 are bonafide five-star performances, how could shows like 6/14/84 or 9/7/85 deserve the same rating?

This post was modified by Cliff Hucker on 2010-01-25 20:59:42

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Jan 25, 2010 12:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

Agree on the reviews....so may 5-stars given for what objectively are often 3 or at best 4 star shows...maybe having the "half" option would help...we'd probably see a lot more 4 1/2 star ratings than 5-stars and same down the line...which would be more accurate.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jan 25, 2010 12:42pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

Note that most of the recent Dead and Further shows also get 5 stars. I've long since given up on stars for any indication as to how a show sounds and/or was played. I rely on folks like Cliff, LIA, Dr. Flashback, and others for pointing me in the right direction. Since Tell only points me to two shows, I pretty much tune him out.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 25, 2010 1:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks meets simple math...

Oh yeah, a couple of smart asses that can't count...there ain't no other way around it but for the fact that the number is perhaps twice, THRICE that measely amt. Why, even Rob can recount (get it?) that 6-14, 10-12 AND 12-29 get regular mention for 68, and if 4-5-69 doesn't have my mtn of the moon face all over it, it must be Arb's...throw in 6-7-70, 9-19-70, and of course...say it with me: "8-6 H2H!" (see? no yr necessary!) brings us to a whopping half dozen shows to keep track of...or may four score minus three score and smidge or two; how about 11 fumbles and INTs?

Manageable for my pea brain, but still a far cry from TWO you half wits...jeezzz, and hey, GROK buddy--I hope milk isn't coming out of your nose!

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Jan 25, 2010 1:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

Hey BD, what do you want to bet that there might be DSO shows that get higher ratings than the orignal Dead show?

Agreed, stars don't mean much to me either. Never an indicator for me. I've been around enough to know and be able to readily list the most legendary shows then after that I have my opinions on which years I think were their best. Even with that criteria I can get enjoyment from ALMOST any year if the conditions are right : )

" Since Tell only points me to two shows, I pretty much tune him out. "

AWESOME man. Too funny! 9-19-79 anyone?

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Poster: lobster12 Date: Jan 25, 2010 5:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

I think you have answered your own question by applying the wine rating system to shows. Only fair way to breakdown 5 star gigs.

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Poster: TOOTMO Date: Jan 25, 2010 2:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

What we need are reviews of the reviewer. Or, perhaps, someone could devise a test for the reviewers and those that pass could get some sort of seal of approval. Then, when you read a review and you see that a reviewer is either kosher or not kosher and you know how much weight to give their opinions.
But what questions should be asked?

TOOTMO

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jan 25, 2010 2:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

I've never known the answer to the answer, man. (misplaced comma?).

Ask JOTS for his opinon of jboyguar's reviews.

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Poster: lobster12 Date: Jan 25, 2010 5:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

This just in...another 3 star review from J-boy. he's the judge equivalent to Wolfman jack on dance fever.

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Poster: TOOTMO Date: Jan 25, 2010 2:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

Kind of funny that you should bring up the j-word, in light of this confession: http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=243897

Now what do you have to say for yourself, BD?
I'm sure you'll say you were just kiddin' but isn't the root of all humour sprouted in a peatpot of truth?


Go to hell, Carolina, go to hell.

TOOTMO

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jan 25, 2010 3:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

Damn, busted! (or was I?)

But I'll make sure my new reviews of DSO are less glowing.

GTH, UNC, GTH ... INDEED! (Looks like they are headed there this year...)

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jan 25, 2010 9:30am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

gotta agree with your sentiment there Cliff. Other than the extremely excellent 7/8/78 show, I dont see what is so great about Red Rock shows versus many other venues. Certainly many shows they performed in that dump called MSG where consistently superior.

then again, I would love to head out there with my camera equipment for some nice shots - certainly more scenic than the city that never sleeps :)

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Poster: groovernut Date: Jan 25, 2010 9:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: overated rocks

True. Whatever magic folks describe is not present on most recordings... that makes me wonder, if red rocks is the most over rated venue, what is the most under rated?

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Jan 25, 2010 11:02am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: most under rated venue?

"...if red rocks is the most over rated venue, what is the most under rated?"

Good question!

I nominate the Boston Music Hall...

04/07/71
04/08/71
12/01/71
12/02/71
09/15/72
09/16/72
11/30/73
12/01/73
12/02/73
06/09/76
06/10/76
06/11/76
06/12/76
11/13/78
11/14/78

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Poster: groovernut Date: Jan 25, 2010 11:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: most under rated venue?

Nice thanks for the list.... got some listing to do now.